75: Listen to Yourself: A Conversation with Lara Downes
PART 1
with Lara Downes
Transcript (edited for length)
Today, we were delighted to talk with pianist Lara Downes about her career and career advice for musicians. Lara is a very sought after an accomplished concert pianist, playing concertos, recitals, chamber music.
But she also is the founder and host of a video series Amplify With Lara Downes and a new recording label and music publishing initiative called Rising Sun Music. Beyond that, she's commissioned many composers and collaborated outside of classical music and a lot of creative ways. So it's a perfect person to talk to about career. Lara, thank you for being here.
It’s my pleasure.
Kellogg:
And I think you have one of the, sort of, fullest and widest ranging careers of anyone that I could think of. And so the first question is, looking back to your formative years, what were some really important steps you took early on in your career development?
Downes:
I think just listening to myself, which, I hadn't learned to do that in school. And I mean, I guess I need to give a bit of background. So I did my studies in Europe and then yeah, and then came back here. I was, I don't know, 20, 21 and didn't kind of have a base here. So I really had to start all over kind of from the ground up. So I had to hustle. I had to do lots of things to make rent and also to just sort of get my footing here.
And at that point, I kind of had to sit down with myself and decide how I wanted to do this, you know, and why I wanted to do this. And I think about this a lot because I think if I'd stayed where I where I was, if I'd stayed in Europe, if I just sort of continued on a path that was frankly quite easy and comfy and very supported.
But I've had that need and that catalyst to really, like, you know, sit with myself. I did actually have a light bulb moment and it's incredible when I think about how formative that was and how many things have spun off of that moment.
When I came back here, it was - to this country - it was really sort of a crisis of identity. Like, who am I as an American person, artist, all the things? And I didn't know a lot about American music, and I just kind of wanted to explore things that I hadn't explored when I was a child before we left. And there was this exhibit at the Guggenheim-- no, sorry, it was at the Whitney called the American Century, which was just like a retrospective of the 20th century in America. And it was so brilliantly curated. It was, you know, the sort of the historical timeline. But at every point along the way, it was like, hear what was happening in society, politics, music, art, and I saw how things come together. And that's the piece that had always been missing, like how do things come together? And so specifically in American music, that has been my driver, I think. How do things come together and how do I illustrate that there's a big picture around the music.
Kellogg:
That is so cool that an art exhibit gave you that broader perspective on how music connected to the broader culture. So that that catalyst moment or that epiphany, what did that lead you to next that then began this journey of such a multifaceted career?
Downes:
The next thing that happened was that I had this sort of lucky moment where I was offered the opportunity to make a record. And I had been since that exhibit, like digging into American music this deep one. I think when I look at it now, because I just didn't have the tools or the perspective, but I was just learning my basic way in, you know, Copeland, Barber, all the sort of usual suspects.
So I was offered this chance to make a record, and I wanted to tell the story of what I was learning. So I wanted to make this like, well, compilation record, but story record, I guess, was the way I thought about it.
And nobody wanted me to do that. They wanted me to do the thing you're supposed to do when you're 21 and, you know, do an all-Schumann album or something like that.
And I stuck to my guns for I don't know what reason. And there were, like, really good reasons not to do it at that point. But I did. And that, I think, solidified my purpose, my vision. And also it turned out well. So, you know, gave me encouragement that this was a productive and powerful path.
Kellogg:
If that recording had a narrative, what was the narrative?
Downes:
Oh, that's such a good question, and I don't even know anymore because it feels so, so far in the past. And, you know, there's so many layers of information and knowledge and understanding that I have on top of it.
But I guess, I guess what it was, was an initial attempt to illustrate what America sounds like and why, you know, there was like, Roy Harris on there, with the folk songs, and Copeland playing with the blues.
So, yeah, that's, that's what it was. I just didn't know at that point that they weren't all dead white guys who had done that!
Kellogg:
This moment that you had at the Whitney, connecting art and culture and politics and probably what was going on in the fabric of society, the time led you to think about programing, and then eventually with this recording a little bit differently. How did you cultivate artistic vision? And how has that played a role in your career development?
Downes:
I mean, I think I've just learned by doing so after the record and after, you know, this sort of initial beginning of a mission, I started doing these things again. Nobody really knew what to call them. Were they lecture recitals? I hope not. That sounds awful! You know? But they were just music and, and talk. I don't know. I still maybe don't know what to call them. But it's funny, sometimes I will come across my notes and I was like doing multiple things at the same time. I was learning on my feet because I didn't know this stuff. And then I was writing way more than I needed to. You know, this was like dense, more information.
But I think that as I was learning, I was broadening my scope, and I was, and I was learning the craft of doing this, you know? And I remember the first time I did one of these was actually at the University of California, Davis, before they built their performing arts center. I was in a classroom and it was this free lunchtime concert and people literally sat in classroom chairs. And so I thought, Well, we're in a classroom, so I need to make this really not seem like a class, you know? And so then I think I started thinking about, well, How do you tell these stories in a really engaging, emotionally compelling way? I don't want to lecture anyone. I just want to invite them into this music and give them the same experience that I had at that museum, to understand, you know, how things live together.
Kellogg:
So as you're exploring this body of 20th century American music and connecting the dots of influence, and who knew who or who listened to what kind of music, you wanted to share that through storytelling.
Downes:
Yeah. I really did.
Kellogg:
And that early on became a main sort of thrust of how you were going to bring music to the people you were playing for.
Downes:
And what's funny about that is that I think about my very, very first piano teacher when I was four who had this kind of unique approach to teaching very, very little kids. And that involved no method books. But like, here's the little Bartok and the little Bach that you can get your fingers around. And here's the story. Here's the story behind this Bartok folk song. Here, you know, Here's the text that, you know… And so that idea of story was deeply embedded. And that, too, is extraordinary to me that, you know, it planted a seed.
Kellogg:
That’s fantastic. So what is the power of storytelling when you're sharing a piece of music with an audience?
Downes:
I mean, maybe there are people who don't want to know. I mean, you know, again, back to museums, I think there are people who want to stand in front of the painting and look at it, and then the people who want to read the little thing on the wall, you know, to get the basics. And then the people who do a lot of who already have a lot of information about who the artist is, and what the inspiration was, and the period, and other things, I think maybe it's just personal.
I really like to know. I really like to know not the facts, not the dates and the facts, but the human story. The human story, just for me, gives a context to the music. And I think, frankly, we struggle in our field with context. You know, why should you care about this piece of music from 250 years ago? Here's why. Here's how it relates to your life right now. You know, on this earth. And here's why it lasts and here's what it has given rise to and here's where that is going. I think it's healthy.
I have the most interesting conversations with audience members after my shows and they really talk about this a lot, the way that they have felt drawn in, invited. And it's kind of across the board, right? Because if you knew nothing coming in now, you know something and if you knew a lot coming in and maybe you know something different or maybe you're just experiencing it in a different way because, again, we don't do lectures...
Kellogg:
Telling stories about a brand new piece or a composer that is living and not yet known or when you're bringing a composer that deserves to be known but is less known than a Chopin or a Beethoven, the storytelling provides that context and invites people in. When you're marketing and sort of bringing audiences to concerts, is there a trust that you've built as an artist that then transcends the challenges of people not knowing every composer on the program?
Downes:
I think so. I hope so. And to be clear, it's not like I'm setting each piece of music up with like, Here's what I want you to know about this. It's more like it's like a landscape for the music to live in, you know? And what I love to do and what this gives me the opportunity of doing is to combine things that are unexpected bedfellows, right? Because either there's a sonic connection or a story connection. And that also for me is healthy because it shows that the familiar and the unfamiliar can sit together, that we can expand our ears without that being scary or effortful. So I think it's the whole blend, right? And of course, I'm always starting with a sound world. And I think I've learned to do this probably best in the realm of recording because you really have to curate well, you really have to build well and have so many things in your mind, you know, and just the connections, the arc, and then above that also the story. So yeah, I think I learned from myself in different arenas.
Kellogg:
Can you discuss the importance of having a multifaceted career and how have the different parts of your career complemented each other and helped create opportunities?
Downes:
Yeah, I think that's something that took me a minute and I had resistance to it because I think I believed that you did have to choose and you had to do one thing with your whole heart and soul and be identified as one thing.
So I remember the first time that I was invited to write something for a print publication. I thought, well, if I do that, does that mean that I'm a writer instead of a pianist? I mean, it's funny to think about it now because I do so many things and I think we all can do so many things and we should. Yes, I think you learn from all the various things you do. They complement each other. I mean, the example I gave before in terms of curating, that's been really important. But also for me, it's about multiple platforms and multiple audiences, right? So there's that one audience. It's within the concert hall. And then if you move outwards from there, there's the audience that you're reaching by your recordings and on the radio. What a huge audience on the radio, right? And then anything that I'm writing…
I remember I had written this essay some years ago. I had done this record that was a Billie Holiday song book, and it had been published, I guess, in a music magazine. And one day I got this email and the subject line was like ‘Something, Something Reader's Digest.’ And I thought it was like a subscription thing, and I almost deleted it and then I didn't. And an editor at Reader's Digest had read it and they wanted to republish it. And I was like, Reader's Digest, of all things?
And for years I still hear, I mean, I think, you know, those Reader's Digests sit in waiting rooms for a long time. So now there's like some person who's in the waiting room, you know, in Tulsa who's reading my thoughts about this project. I did, and I'm a huge fan of that, of just, you know, reaching outside of our normal circles. And I think we reach outside of our normal circles by doing many things for many people with many people.
Kellogg:
Some advice that I had heard a while ago is that when you put something out in the world, you will absolutely never know who it might connect with. And so you might think, Oh, I put so much work into this thing, and it seemed like it barely was noticed. And years later you discover that somebody saw it and then opportunity came up.
Downes:
Yeah.
Kellogg:
What advice do you have to say about when artists should say yes to an opportunity or no to an opportunity, or how they would embrace the idea of new things and risk taking and facing the fear of trying something they've never done before?
Downes:
This is something I'm still learning. It's lifelong. I think when I've narrowed it down to for myself is you say yes, when you know well, you say yes when your gut says yes, of course. You say yes, when you think it's something that maybe you need to push yourself to do, but you're but it's something that you want to learn, like it's a direction in which you want to expand.
I think we have to monitor our anxiety levels. And if we say yes, because we think we should, but it's really something that's terrifying and that's, you know, keeping you awake at night, maybe that wasn't a good yes.
I, as you know, I really like to do diverse things for diverse reasons. And but I guess I would say it's instinct and to trust your instincts is really important when it comes to that.
Kellogg:
Could you share some insight into managing the business side of your activity? You know, what advice do you have for artists about all of those things?
Downes:
Yeah, you know, sometimes I get scared that we're, we're talking so much about entrepreneurship and innovation and the business of music because we're not all good at everything, you know?
But I have learned how to do most, most everything. I think I have basic knowledge about how to do all the things that connect with my career. And then at this point, I'm fortunate to have people who, you know,
help me work with me on those things, but I still know how to do that, which I think is important. You know, I look at looking at these last few years when we all learned how to do good, or not so good, video production.
But I think that part of this is understanding what your priorities are. You know, where, where do you want to focus your messaging about your career, and in what directions do you want to build your career?
And so, you know, maybe that means you have to be stronger or less strong in web stuff, or maybe you have to push yourself to do better writing or, you know, maybe you need to branch out more into kind of the networking and collaboration side with other creative partners.
I think some basic vision is important because, I mean, there are only so many hours in the day. So learning to be really good at everything is probably not important, but learning to be really good at the things that are really going to serve you. So what did I need to figure out first? Well, you know, of course, when you're starting out, you have no money to pay anybody to do anything, so, yeah, you make your own website and you...
Oh, I'm a really good graphic designer! I am so good with Canva! In fact, we have this joke actually with my existing team, because sometimes we'll get a design from somebody and I'm like, just hold. And I go in and I make something in Canva and I send it back and I say, The design team came up with this, with this alternative! I think you need to know, like, I know how I want my things to look! That's important to me. So, you know, maybe it's being a control freak, but I think just having the basic skills to do that and maybe it's just, you know, showing some direction to somebody who's a professional? Yeah, all the things.
This podcasting thing that I do, I had to obviously learn all those skills. And then I found out that I really like doing it, and I think I'm kind of good at it. So I learned, I learned it more.
Kellogg:
That's wonderful. As a multifaceted musician with many hats, how do you manage your time?
Downes:
Poorly! Um, I keep lists. I have lists of what I need to do-- So I can't go to sleep at night without a list of what I need to do the next day. Because when I have a list and those things don't look so large and looming.
So I do that. And then I have, I have lists of, you know, what needs to be practiced when, what are the deadlines, and what are the priorities, and how we’re scaffolding that? Because I'm not naturally good at that. I have lists of what I need to pack! Yeah, I need to see everything on paper.
And then I have to I, I have to push myself to take time off. I have an overactive brain. Maybe so, like, I just this summer I had a festival in Portugal at the beginning of August and then tacked on four days off after that. And then I learned it's not good to take those four days off in August, because in August that means September is coming. And in September, you have all this new music. So I need to take my days off in June in the future.
Kellogg:
In the balance of life, music wellness or just artists’ wellbeing, feels almost like a new topic in our field. What does that mean to you? How do you think about wellbeing?
Downes:
Yeah, it's, that's extraordinary. I think for me I'm trying to be kinder to myself. I'm trying to start to listen to myself a little bit when I, when my self is saying I'm tired or I don't want to take care of that today, I'll do that tomorrow. I have, you know, a sense of urgency about all things. And I think I know where it comes from. I mean, I think that traditionally coming up in this field means like always be ready, always be the best. You know, you can't show that you're tired or not feeling well or otherwise weak.
That's how it was for me. I think that, you know, the fact that we're starting to listen to our, our needs as humans is incredibly important. And hopefully young people are finding support.
It was funny, as I was saying earlier, one of the recent conversations I had for the NPR show, for Amplify, we were talking about questions of trauma and identity and kind of survival and things like this. And there was a cranky person who left a comment on YouTube that basically said, you know, “That's your business. I don't want to hear about this. What about the music?” And I realized that there's also this culture of kind of secrecy historically in this industry where nobody talked about their challenges, nobody talked about, you know, race or sexual orientation or, you know, emotional well-being or mental health. These were things that were hidden away. And you were just supposed to show up on the stage and do your best every night, night after night, and, you know, “be a trooper”. Oh, that word, a “trooper”. So thank goodness that is changing.
I think, I think that the pandemic had something to do with that, you know, recognizing that we are human, and that we're human together and also that we can support each other. And what I'm finding, too, is that the moment that artists have started acknowledging humanity, we are supporting each other better. And we're coming into a rehearsal with an attitude of, What does everybody need? You know, How do we make this a healthy space for everyone? And, Who needs a break for what? And, Who needs to call home? and all these things that really didn't exist before.
Kellogg:
I would imagine that young musicians actually still feel that tension as a very big weight, that there still is the idea that you're supposed to always be ready, always-- if you have any problems, if you have any, whether it's a physical problem or you need time off, or that as a young person, you can't afford to show that.
Downes:
No!
Kellogg:
I don’t know how as an industry that we sort of change that. What advice would you give to young people when they feel that pressure of they're always supposed to be perfect and perform and never miss a golden opportunity, but they'll pay for it if they force themselves?
Downes:
I mean, I, I like to say that institutional change isn't real. You know, that institutions are just people, but that I think we have to take off of the next generation. I mean, for the next generation to speak up, just say, No, it's not okay. No, I'm not okay. No, I don't want to do that. I can't do that right now. And hopefully there's not a price to pay.
But I think leaders in every area of this industry really have to be cognizant of that. And I do think that's something that's changing fast. I mean, look, I remember as a child, this also existed at home. If I felt bad about something, if I felt sad after not getting, you know, some audition I wanted, my mom was hard on me, you know, don't cry about that. It's, you know, you just you get up and you do it again. You do it again, you know, tomorrow. And that's not okay. You should feel sad if you want to feel sad. Not feeling sad, let's you, makes you also not feel happy and you need to feel happy.
I think, you know, when I talk about being kinder to myself, I'm also trying to let myself enjoy myself more because I realized, you know, this overachieving streak that runs through this field means that I have been in the position of not recognizing, appreciating, enjoying, like reveling in wonderful things that happen. It's just like, Okay, that happened and now what am I doing tomorrow? And that, I don't want to do that. I want to just sit in today and be so thrilled. And then, you know, tomorrow I take a nap!
Kellogg:
So related to the things we've just been talking about, what are challenges you've encountered in your career or in your life? How have you overcome them?
Downes:
Nothing, it's been smooth sailing!
Kellogg:
Okay!
Downes:
The challenge for me has been convincing people to “get it” about what I wanted to do, you know, because I do a weird thing. I've always done, you know, this weird thing. So at every step along the way, that has meant convincing someone or someones to, honestly, let me do it.
You know, from that first record that I was talking about where I had to insist, No, no, no, I want to make this American music record and I don't remember how I did that. But, you know, look at all of the music that I've, that I've been championing that, until 5 minutes ago, nobody really cared about it. So that's been a combination of, well, learning how to be convincing and compelling, you know? And I guess, you know, that's maybe part of where the storytelling comes from because you have to have a good story to tell about something that nobody knows and nobody thinks they're interested in. I don't know.
So for me, that challenge is also been the privilege, right? Whenever you're charting a new path, it's, you know, you got to whack the bushes on your way. So it's nice right now that some of this is not so effortful, not such a heavy lift, but I think it's really helped me. It's helped me understand why I do this. When you have to explain to somebody else why they should care or help you or, you know, then you're understanding why, why you want to do something.
Kellogg:
You started off with that album that was American composers and that led you on a path where it's been a sort of a personal mission to support Black composers and underrepresented composers. So how did you arrive there?
Downes:
So you know, I think the word that I use most when I'm talking to young people is authenticity. And that goes back, this whole thing just goes back to a personal search for self. So, you know, the next step after that first record and starting to learn about the history of American music was I just, just something seemed off to me because I look around myself and I see, you know, what we look like as a country.
So is it correct that only these few people who all look the same wrote this music? That can't be right. And so I started intentionally looking. Did women write this music? Did people of color write this music? Did maybe people who are both of those things write this music? And it was a solitary search.
And, you know, one of the first things that happened was I found this, this compilation, a music book in a library called 100 Years of Music by Black Women-- by Black American Women Composers. I don't know. It was a very, you know, unwieldy title. Also, it was 100 years and there were like 12 pieces of music in the book, you know? But in that book was the first Fantasie négre by Florence Price. And as soon as I started to play that piece…
You know, this big part of the puzzle for myself about how, how do I fit into this tradition where as far as I know, no one has ever looked like me, right? That piece, her presence, her existence started to answer that question. And there was something about the sound that was just so familiar, like DNA, deep familiar for me. And the moment I played it in public, I saw that there was an equal recognition and not necessarily for identity reasons, but just like this thing about an American sound, and an American story.
So I think really, really quickly what I was looking for, for myself, became something that I was looking for, for others, and that is never ending and that is constantly expanding. And every time...
There was this woman who came to me after a performance like a week ago, in - Where was I? - California, I think, and I had been, you know, playing music - it was the Florence Price, talking about the music - she came to me and she was in tears and she wanted me to know how much it meant to connect with this composer. This woman was 87 years old. And I was thinking, How is it that you're 87 and this has never come to you before?
So it's the same whether it's, you know, this beautiful 87 year-old woman or, you know, a ten year-old kid in a, in a school gym. I don't remember what your question was, but, you know, why, Why do I care about advocating for this music? Because it just blows open the doors of who feels invited into this space and who cares about it. And I, I, I don't see an end in sight to the possibility there.
Kellogg:
I'll make an observation and you tell me if it's right or wrong. You mentioned the word authenticity and I've used the words, sort of, artistic vision, that you've discovered a passion to pursue a body of music and discover a body of music or help cultivate a body of music. And then that feeds into the various projects, whether it's a performance, a recording or a video interview. And I've got to believe there's a special sort of energy or power when the projects are the natural outgrowth of that passion, that conviction.
And so that-- you can't fabricate it. People have to learn who they are and what they're passionate about. But I do think there's real power for careers that are sparked by projects that flow out of a passion.
Downes:
Absolutely. Yeah. And what worries me is that sometimes I'm asked to speak to, you know, a group of music students and I'm asked to speak to them about like Black composers. And that's not my point. My point isn’t that everybody should care about Black composers. I happen to, and I am deeply invested, you know, with a specific mission about that. But what do you care about? Like what matters to you and what is part of you and what is part of you that you don't see reflected or that could be reflected better?
That's where you start. It's not good when we start making blanket statements about, This is what's important now. There are a million things that are important now.
Kellogg:
It reminds me when we have our auditions and we hear, you know, hundreds of musicians and you hear so much Chopin or you hear so much of anybody, the artist that comes on stage and has a burning passion for a piece of music and they have a need to share that, there's something that comes to life in that performance that is absent in many other performances.
Downes:
Absolutely. And by the way, that that piece might be by Chopin, right? That's fine too!
Kellogg:
Right! But, you know, sometimes when I think artistically, what could young musicians do to best help themselves? It's, what lights you up?
Downes:
Yes!
Kellogg:
And then how do you channel your energy there?
Downes:
What's amazing in the body of music that you've been cultivating is that you, going back to the beginning of the conversation, there was no straightforward path. So if that was the body of music, you had to make the opportunities or make the case for it, which then required you to become this master communicator in multiple formats.
This question of listening to yourself and knowing what your passion is or may, you know, turn into, the one thing that worries me is that - and this kind of connects with your question about wellness – like, are we giving young people the time and space to even figure that out? Or is the, the, you know, the weight of time is--
Kellogg:
The repertoire is so set or the curriculum is so set?
Downes:
Yeah. Yeah. And the and the deadlines and all the things, because that is something that comes up. And frankly, if you have very little limited time off, are you devoting that time to playing around with other repertoire? No, probably you're watching Netflix, so I think that this needs to be built into the, the growth period, the development period of of a young person.
Kellogg:
Yeah, I completely agree.